tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post7728367106080861631..comments2024-02-26T09:30:54.111-06:00Comments on Domine, da mihi hanc aquam!: Feminist outrage & the banality of abortion (UPDATED)Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-66215906528677486172009-05-13T09:11:00.000-05:002009-05-13T09:11:00.000-05:00Dear Arium,
I will never stop prosletising, since...Dear Arium, <br />I will never stop prosletising, since this is part of the great commission to all christians. When I asked if you have ever experienced the Love of God... I think I already knew what some of the answer would be. Unfortunately many sincere christians (catholics included) do not either understand (despite some form of catachesis * see later on) or indeed allow the Holy spirit to work in them because they continue to maintain control over their lives and do not surrender themselves to Jesus out of love, which is what being a chistian is. Jesus has given us all free will and thus will not impose Himself on anyone, since He wants us to come to him freely. So going to Mass and receiving Our Lord, going to confession, receiving confirmation,or even getting married becomes just another thing that you do in the course of living and just as easy to ditch therefore, unless you live a life surrendered to God...you know the bit about giving up ones own life in order to save it etc.<br />This is why there are some catholics who think it is ok to promote abortion, contraception, euthanasia, divorce, same-sex realtionships. There are also those who like yourself loudly proclaim themselves to be ex-catholics... and like Fr.P I think that you have engaged with a parody of the Church. There were many in the 60's and 70's who were led astray by *inaccurate and sometimes heretical teaching even that given by some religious, (see the com-thread re the visitation of women religious in the USA) which included the above subjects. Often when I read atheistic or personal rants against the church, either the person is (as Fr.P has said) heavily into whatever the Church has prohibited, and want the Church to "compromise" which is relativism: additionaly as in your case they feel they have 'reasoned' their way out of the Church citing 'intelligent thought' etc. I'd just like to say that it is a faith and it cannot be 'reasoned' by human wisdom. I also would ask you to look at the arrogance that implies therefore that you are a) intellectually greater than God Himself, b)intellectually greater than us clealy deluded beings who continue to have a relationship with the Living God. And in wanting the continuance of that life, and have the 'peace that passes all understanding' we want to remain obedient to Him, spend time in real prayer (not just saying/reciting prayers), receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament, be reconciled with Him in Confession, and consecrate our marriage (man and woman) in Him.<br />In the terrible situation that startrd this com-thread, God loves all the parties involved equally BUT it is crystal clear that the Church condemns 1)the actions of the step-father in the rape and abuse of his step-daughter 2) Both he, and his wife, and those who performed the abortion have distanced THEMSELVES from the Church through their actions 3)they need to acknowledge their wrong-doing, confess it (sacramentally). Even leaving out the theistic stuff, they, and everyone else too, needs to also acknowledge that the precurement of the abortion did not 'put right' the effects of the rape but compounded it with a two further sins (the cover-up and the abortion) which damaged this little one still further.<br />In my career as a nurse/midwife I have seen several girls of this age be delivered albeit earlier than full term. It is not without risk but would have been the best way in this case. <br />I have already prayed for all of those involved.I will continue to do so, as I will for you Arium, that you come to a true knowledge of God and Holy Church.<br /><br />With love and prayers <br />maryclare :-)maryclarenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-32907128228101974742009-05-12T08:19:00.000-05:002009-05-12T08:19:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-81221930744083680882009-05-11T23:00:00.000-05:002009-05-11T23:00:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00126818186333142129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-35669579149281227042009-05-11T17:02:00.000-05:002009-05-11T17:02:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00126818186333142129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-27906340433626737202009-05-11T15:58:00.000-05:002009-05-11T15:58:00.000-05:00Fellow posters have supported my points by seeming...Fellow posters have supported my points by seeming to disagree with them. Coooool. <br /><br />Christianity is by nature evangelical, meaning that the first and preoccupying work of the Church is evangelization (c.f. Pope Paul VI, EVANEGLII NUNTIANDI, 1975). It is the primary task of the Christian to claim the world for Christ. Why in the world would we ever want to surrender ground we have already gained for Christ by VOLUNTEERING to forego the designations B.C. and A.D. Absolutely not! The Church of Christ is the true faith, not one good option among many. Non-Christians are helped to see this by needing to adjust to Christian terminology if they are in that part of the world that has already been won for Christ or influenced by it. This week-kneed "Oh, we don't really mean it" baloney has got to come to an end. For those of us who are Christians, we must recognize that our gift of faith is not for each of us alone, but it is a legacy that has been given to the whole world through us. In justice we must influence the world however we can with the gift we have been given.<br /><br />One writer said: "your characterization of the pro-choice movement as being "pro-abortion" is insulting. The pro-choice movement is about women having the right to decide for themselves whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. Imposing a decision on women, either way, is anti-choice."<br /><br />Sorry, you'll just have to feel insulted then, because any conversation that leaves any door open for the murder of a child is a choice to murder a child. Period.<br />Don't you get it? That's why people of faith are so opposed to the pro-abortion movement. Abortion is the murder of a child.<br />And yes, mothers have been giving their lives for their children all through human history. It is precisely what they are supposed to do if push comes to shove and the life of their child, born or unborn, is imperiled. What sort of mother would not give her life for her child? That's why the pro-life movement is so critical right now. This is the first age in history where instead of being ready to die for their children, women are fighting for the right to murder their own children. This is not a women's issue, it is a societal issue because women are demanding the right to mutilate womanhood and motherhood into a monstrous deformity that has never before been seen in human history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-10642004108198941302009-05-11T12:55:00.000-05:002009-05-11T12:55:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-14090761954543866222009-05-11T12:54:00.000-05:002009-05-11T12:54:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-84322476997907264522009-05-11T08:14:00.000-05:002009-05-11T08:14:00.000-05:00Rebecca's is a frequently-repeated question that d...Rebecca's is a frequently-repeated question that deserves careful answering, first because polite and respectful exchange must govern theological exchange, but also because her comments reveal that she is very far distant from actually understanding what the Church is saying on this point. The Church has never indicated, nor will she ever indicate, that rape is anything other than the unspeakably, inhumane, violent act that it has already been described to be in this string of comments. No tolerance of this awful act or minimization of its degrading inhumanity is hinted at in any way by the Church. What Holy Mother Church is saying is that the murder of a child can never be the way to solve, heal or ameliorate that awful act. Church teaching would similarly maintain that when an unspeakable act of violence or a natural calamity leaves a child (or adult, for that matter) blind, disfigured, crippled, bereft of limbs, etc., that the murder of that child (or adult) can never be the way to solve the incredible difficulties the injured child (or person) and his or her family will face the rest of his/her life. <br /><br />You know, I think that what Rebecca and some of our other readers fail to include in forming their conclusions is that this earthly life isn't all there is to life. Friends, sometimes life is unjust, painful and miserable. It isn't fair. But we can't make it all fair by allowing more catastrophes to occur in vengeance or in pursuit of somehow "making it right." However, in the course of time all will be all right. We have a Redeemer who took all of humanity's brokenness unto Himself and has healed it. The day will come when all the painfulness of this life will be resolved and healed and those who make it to heaven will enjoy the subsequent peace eternally. Since these discussions are located on a religious website, we must take the religious outcomes seriously as part of the context in which resolution occurs for all of these difficulties.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-79601767443296497622009-05-11T06:05:00.000-05:002009-05-11T06:05:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00126818186333142129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-58166652904187366462009-05-11T00:46:00.000-05:002009-05-11T00:46:00.000-05:00Marilyn,
The Church never approves of abortion......Marilyn,<br /><br />The Church never approves of abortion...abortion is an intrinsically morally evil act. Circumstances, intent, and possible goods do not change this. <br /><br />People find this difficult to understand for some reason.<br /><br />Experiment: the Church also teaches that rape is an intrinsically morally evil act. Circumstances, intent, and possible goods do not change this.<br /><br />For those who can think of any number of relevant circumstances, intents, and good outcomes that magically turn abortion into a Good Thing, tell me what circumstances, intents, and possible goods magically turn rape into a Good Thing.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-27204403187420464112009-05-11T00:09:00.000-05:002009-05-11T00:09:00.000-05:00We really should refuse to construct certain victo...We really should refuse to construct certain victories for the opponents of life by reason of language. For some time now, anti-Christian "scholars" have been encouraging replacement of the initials "B.C." and "A.D." with "B.C.E. (Before Christian Era) and "C.E." (Christian Era). What a fool I was a few years ago as a Catholic scholar to publish this brand of silliness. Capitulation to this is cooperation with those forces wishing to erase Our Lord's infliuence form the face of the earth piece by piece, yet I (and many other priests and Sisters and lay Catholic scholars cooperated).<br />Now we have been bullied once again into using the term "pro-choice" by the pro-abortionists. We Catholics who are opposed to abortion are the true pro-choicers, as in "choice for life." And the only choice the "pro-choice movement" is interetsed in is the choice for abortion. So let's do get our language straight. We should never, never, never refer to the abortion movement as anything other than "Pro-Abortion." We, of course, are the "Pro-Life Movement." <br /><br />I think the same sinister forces using the same strategies caused pro-lifers to agree some years ago that it was uncouth and unacceptable to display aborted children in pro-life literature and we capitulated. Now I am beginning to wonder if we were wrong. Pro-abortionists can claim an absolute victory in getting Pro-Lifers to abandon one of their most potent weapons after the Rosary and other forms of prayer. What do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-53347650863433340712009-05-10T23:04:00.000-05:002009-05-10T23:04:00.000-05:00I have two observations:
I thought that the Churc...I have two observations:<br /><br />I thought that the Church did approve of an abortion if the pregnancy endangered the life of the mother and, secondly, I was under the impression that the Church is fine with oral sex as long as it is culminated with, uh, the usual kind of sex.<br /><br />Missionary position, of course.<br /><br />MarilynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-45864640324522793592009-05-10T08:24:00.000-05:002009-05-10T08:24:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-60097522132986097382009-05-10T08:22:00.000-05:002009-05-10T08:22:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-65077535333687243322009-05-10T00:10:00.000-05:002009-05-10T00:10:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00126818186333142129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-20072910319562813952009-05-09T23:40:00.000-05:002009-05-09T23:40:00.000-05:00Rebecca,
I'm sure Catholic apologists much more in...Rebecca,<br />I'm sure Catholic apologists much more intelligent and intellectual than I can answer you logically and coherently. I know your argument is a red herring, but I'm not going to be logical because I rarely know a pro-choice person like you to be swayed by logic. It is almost always invariably an argument from emotion: abortion should be available in the case of rape, incest, and MOST OF ALL, MY personal situation...<br /><br />I've had a few children, and all I can tell you, emotionally speaking is, we women were not made, naturally, supernaturally or in any other way to kill our children, born or unborn. Abortion is a dehumanizing process to mother and child. We women gain nothing and lose a lot by allowing society to snuff the lives of our babies out. It does not free us, does not make our lives better, and the Church, which actually tries to offer us alternatives, ought to be credited for it instead of attacked by those who who feel defensive and angry.kchttp://booksnblather.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-53913432853050323522009-05-09T23:34:00.000-05:002009-05-09T23:34:00.000-05:00Tinfoil Hattie,
I didn't even read the rest of the...Tinfoil Hattie,<br />I didn't even read the rest of the comments (no time).<br />I'm just busy laughing and kind of crying at your shortsighted ignorance.<br />I'm an educated, 20th century woman, who was brought up under all the indoctrination of the femimist movement.<br />All I can tell you is... the Catholic Church is MY BEST ADVOCATE.<br />Being married to a Catholic man who does not insist, selfishly, that I drug myself up 24/7 to be available sexually, has MADE ME FREE!<br />I'll never give guys like you the time of day, and I spend my time teaching my girls to avoid men who think like you like the plague. <br /><br />I've just run out of time, patience, and false charity. Your world-view is a male-chauvinist dream and contributes to the destruction of women and their children whether you realize it or not. Muslims often oppress their women from the outside, but we Westerners bring it on ourselves from just such a point of view.<br /><br />The Catholic Church alone really understands the role, dignity, and respect to be accorded to women, their fertility, and their children.<br /><br />NFP isn't easy. Neither is staying married, raising your children properly, or just loving your neighbor. But self-giving love is the only way to happiness and Church teaching and sacraments are God's gifts to get you there. <br /><br />There is a reason why you who call it misogyny suffer from broken relationships, lack of love, and lack of faith. Come home. The Church is, indeed, much wiser than your personal world-view.kchttp://booksnblather.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-87726423982623746482009-05-09T23:23:00.000-05:002009-05-09T23:23:00.000-05:00I grieve for unborn children who, through accident...I grieve for unborn children who, through accident of circumstance, find themselves in a non-Catholic hospital in need of life-saving health care services...but instead discover that the very people who are trained to save their lives are all too eager to take their lives for no other reason than that it is legal to do so and convenient.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-63882204287895570922009-05-09T17:30:00.000-05:002009-05-09T17:30:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00126818186333142129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-41208630432981335112009-05-09T16:26:00.000-05:002009-05-09T16:26:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-22668970995944109082009-05-09T13:11:00.000-05:002009-05-09T13:11:00.000-05:00Scott,
I appreciate the analogy to the extremist ...Scott,<br /><br />I appreciate the analogy to the extremist organization PETA, but some tweaking is in order. We need a personal tie-in. How about this: You arrived home from school one day to find that the family dog had been removed from the backyard. On the front door was a note. The note states that the dog had been taken by a PETA member, and includes the quote, "Animals are not ours to keep as pets." Now you would have a relationship with PETA that is more analogous to my relationship with the RCC.<br /><br />Although closer, this analogy is still lacking in that it doesn't address spending a lifetime trying to clean Catholic baggage from my conscience. (Naturally atheists don't believe that the conscience is a magic moral compass programmed with some objective version of morality.)<br /><br /><I>I have never felt the urge to go to any of their sites and try to shout them down ...</I><BR>I didn't come here due to the urge to shout someone down regarding their beliefs. I followed a link to a rant about a month-old post on a feminist website. I wrote a "me too" post when someone mentioned being an ex-Catholic. Next thing I knew I was discussing topics I hadn't thought about in years.<br /><br />It would be difficult for me to shout anyone down here, as an adversary has his finger on the moderation button.<br /><br /><I>Chastity is beautiful, forgiveness is good, that we are made in the image of God who created us to be more than a misreable pile of lusts is true.</I><BR>This loathing of human nature goes a long way toward articulating a major defect of RC. If we assume for the sake of argument that RC is true, God created us with these "lusts," then declared acting on said lusts to be sinful. Such a god would not be worthy of respect. Calling sexual and other urges "a miserable pile of lusts" indicates an unhealthy view of sexuality and humanity.<br /><br /><I>When we see they who doth protest too much, we no we are on the right track.</I><BR>The suppression natural sexual urges is unhealthy. Countering declarations to the contrary benefits the general mental health of society.Ariumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-74128892105874679442009-05-09T10:18:00.000-05:002009-05-09T10:18:00.000-05:00I take it since your focus in this thread has been...<I>I take it since your focus in this thread has been exclusively on the Evil Church's prudish eye turned toward sex...I take it that one of the activities the Church allegedly condemns is one of your favorite sins? I have yet to meet an ex-Catholic who can articulate the faith. And I have yet to meet an ex-Catholic or current dissident is not pissed at the Church b/c the Church refuses to call his fav sin a Good Thing.</I><BR>Which reminds me of PETA. :) No, seriously. Various vegans etc. believe eating meat or even using animal products is evil. I have never felt the urge to go to any of their sites and try to shout them down because their beliefs don't tweak my conscience in the slightest. In my net travels, there were two subjects that were sure to summon every viper from every rock to spit venom at. One as you can imagine was chastity. Dawn Eden can tell you all about that which brings me to the other subject that people are eager to gainsay: forgiveness. The common shot at Dawn was "Sure, you have already had your sexual fun. Who are you to talk about chastity?" In other words, abandon hope all ye who enter here.<br /><br />A good read is Belloc's The Great Heresies. In it he described the last great one, "The Modern Phase" which would be deadliest of all because they would be attacks on Truth, Beauty, and Goodness themselves. Chastity is <I>beautiful</I>, forgiveness is <I>good</I>, that we are made in the image of God who created us to be more than a misreable pile of lusts is <I>true</I>. When we see they who doth protest too much, we no we are on the right track. It's like one can navigate with a compass using the butt-end instead of the north-pointing end. I have joked with friends that I have always wanted to publish a book called, "Negative witnesses to Truth" and in it would be things like satanists stealing the Eucharist. Well, that only proves that there is something there to steal.Scott W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-68468080608842542982009-05-09T09:56:00.000-05:002009-05-09T09:56:00.000-05:00As I said above, the Church also, for the most par...<I>As I said above, the Church also, for the most part, rejects the death penalty, which would seem to weaken the whole "acceptable acts to do to innocent people" argument.</I><BR>No it doesn't weaken it at all. The Church does not teach the death penalty is an intrinsic evil like abortion is.<br /><br /><br /><I>Do you not see a difference between one's body and one's property? We use the house as an analogy, but do you really not see someone's body as more sacred than a square of ground or a bank account? Parents have an obligation to a child after it is born because at that point its right to life outweighs their right to specific properties. When it is inside someone else's body, her right to liberty outweighs its right to life.</I><BR>Not at all. The idea that it's outside the womb means no killing, but inside the womb anything goes is completely arbitrary. Again it's the act--One is deliberately killing an innocent person and that is always, everywhere, and in every circumstance wrong.<br /><br /><I>If you don't actually understand the concept of bodily autonomy, please tell me, so I can explain it to you before wasting more time on fruitless lines of reasoning.</I><BR> Answered above. Bodily integrity is not absolute. If it involves deliberately killing another's body, in this case the child's body in the womb, it's evil.<br /><br />Yay, Andie did it! Of course this doesn't change much in the sense that when someone says, "I was born and raised Catholic..." that one can take it as nature's way of warning you that what will come next will be a raving farago of nonsense. :DScott W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-84468677885833871012009-05-09T09:42:00.000-05:002009-05-09T09:42:00.000-05:00Arium,
I can teach anyone to reel off "thou-shalt...Arium,<br /><br />I can teach anyone to reel off "thou-shalt-not" bumper stickers and then turn around and teach them to shout themselves stupid condemning these same bumper stickers. Doesn't mean that the one shouting knows 1) the meaning of what's being shouted or 2) why what he is shouting may or may not be true. <br /><br />You can reel off the bumper stickers, but can you tell us why the Church teaches what it does?<br /><br />As an example of what I mean by "parody," the Church does not condemn homosexuality. <br /><br />I take it since your focus in this thread has been exclusively on the Evil Church's prudish eye turned toward sex...I take it that one of the activities the Church allegedly condemns is one of your favorite sins? I have yet to meet an ex-Catholic who can articulate the faith. And I have yet to meet an ex-Catholic or current dissident is not pissed at the Church b/c the Church refuses to call his fav sin a Good Thing.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-9215483550380576512009-05-09T08:57:00.000-05:002009-05-09T08:57:00.000-05:00Philip Powell,
Reading your description of what y...Philip Powell,<br /><br /><I>Reading your description of what you think Catholicism is all about, all I can say is: you've left a Church you know nothing about.</I><BR>You're saying that after 12 years of weekly church attendance, receipt of, to my recollection, 4 sacraments, nearly 7 years of Catholic schooling, and CCD classes (I don't remember what that stands for), I know nothing about Roman Catholicism. I wonder what is needed to obtain a requisite amount of knowledge of the RCC, studying at seminary?<br /><br />I find the concept of "a SNL parody written by a bunch of bitter ex-nuns" to be amusing. While ex-nuns would certainly have more to be bitter about than I, surely such a parody would be based upon knowledge greater than mine. (I assume you are speaking hypothetically, but if such a skit exists, I'd like to see it.)<br /><br />I assume that for the true believer, the primary point of RC is influencing one's destiny in the supposed afterlife. That does not negate the fact that for many survivors of RC, it is the perverse teachings in the realm of human sexuality that are the source of most of our trauma. Teachings that were written ages ago by men who must have had severe issues with sexuality themselves.<br /><br />It really doesn't matter why RC condemns premarital sex, solitary sex, homosexuality, women in the priesthood, etc. What matters is that these rationalizations preclude consideration of the real harms caused by these teachings.Ariumnoreply@blogger.com