tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post7165204606484793562..comments2024-02-26T09:30:54.111-06:00Comments on Domine, da mihi hanc aquam!: Challenge: why reduce but not outlaw?Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-65235057817122533622009-01-21T10:59:00.000-06:002009-01-21T10:59:00.000-06:00Scott, I could not have said it better myself...B...Scott, I could not have said it better myself...<BR/><BR/>BINGO!Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-49646776143546028872009-01-21T10:32:00.000-06:002009-01-21T10:32:00.000-06:00It is entirely possible that your aunt feels no re...<I>It is entirely possible that your aunt feels no remorse for her abortions.</I><BR/><BR/>And I'd add that it is possible that the aunt was pressuring others to get an abortion so that if they were persuaded, it would be affirmation of her actions. Sin usually seeks accomplices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-85015008495325849272009-01-19T22:15:00.000-06:002009-01-19T22:15:00.000-06:00Snup,Our options are not Outlaw or Reduce. The Ch...Snup,<BR/><BR/>Our options are not Outlaw or Reduce. The Church teaches that we must do both. People often forget (or ignore in some cases) that the RCC is the largest provider of free pre-natal care, adoption services, and crisis pregnancy counseling in the US. The charge that the Church only cares about the baby until its born is a red-herring.<BR/><BR/>It is entirely possible that your aunt feels no remorse for her abortions. And it's possible that she's felt no bad effect from them. She would be the unusual case. But lack of remorse for committing murder is a sign of a twisted conscience and not a sign of physical/mental health.<BR/><BR/>The analogy to the drug war doesn't work. If having an abortion caused the mother to become nearly irrevocably addicted to having abortions, then there might be a analogy to be made. The illegal drug trade is fueled by chemical addiction. No such thing exists in abortion. Well, there is P.P.'s addiction to your tax dollars and the profit of baby-killing.<BR/><BR/>The truest sign that abortion is damaging to women is P.P.'s opposition to any and all research into the after-effects of abortion on women's health. While claiming to promote women's health, P.P., NARAL, etc, vehemently oppose federal and state grants that research the devastating effects of abortion. Why? They know the truth...and truth hurts their wallets.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-69999802437626029192009-01-19T21:36:00.000-06:002009-01-19T21:36:00.000-06:00Hmm$400 for an abortion, My cousin had a baby las...Hmm<BR/>$400 for an abortion, My cousin had a baby last year, I believe it was in the neighborhood of $10,000. Some numbers I have seen for adoption are in the $50,000 range. Obviously we, as a society, have our priorities in order.<BR/><BR/>I pondered this last night and gave the matter some thought. The first thing that came to mind was, if we make abortion illegal, what would be the consequence of having an abortion? If we treat as premediated murder, are we going to send these women to prison for life without the possibility of parole? <BR/><BR/>Even though murder is illegal, there are still programs that have been developed which work to reduce the murder rate. Why can't the same thing happen with abortion.<BR/><BR/>Apparently for some women, it is no big deal to have an abortion. My aunt was pressuring my cousin to have an abortion every time she has gotten pregnant. My cousin has 5 kids BTW. When my cousin was pregnant the first time, my aunt told her that she had had 2 abortions and it was really no big deal. My cousin left home the next day. I don't know where I'm going with this tale other to say I was floored. <BR/><BR/>I think as a society it would be better to look at the causes of abortion and work to have abortion reduce naturally or organically. <BR/><BR/>The only other thing I can think of is the Drug War. That's going oh so well.Tina aka Snupnjakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10209866349452434099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-41106097789909168332009-01-19T21:10:00.000-06:002009-01-19T21:10:00.000-06:00Robert,I understand the attractiveness of this com...Robert,<BR/><BR/>I understand the attractiveness of this compromise you are proposing. Very pragmatic, etc.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that by pulling back on our insistence that abortion is an abomination that must be stopped, we risk having the opposition say to us, "Well, you've tolerated abortion all these years while you worked on reducing the number of abortion, why so adamant now to outlaw it?" IOW, by compromising with the culture of death, we concede that abortion has some legit (even if for us only temporary) part to play in having and raising children. <BR/><BR/>I was a pro-abort myself for years and years, even serving outside a clinic as a NOW escort. Each abortion costs roughly $350-$400. Planned Parenthood has no economic incentive to pursue a "reduce but don't outlaw" strategy. In fact, if the pro-life movement adopts such a strategy it will be a sign to the pro-aborts that we don't really think abortion is all that bad. <BR/><BR/>I realize too that some of the hysterical rhetoric coming out of some in the pro-life movement (makes mine look tame) is damaging to the cause. When I was the faculty adviser for the pro-life group at U.D., I would not allow them to use those ridiculous posters of chopped up fetuses or yell bumpersticker slogans to people going into the clinic. None of that is persuasive. But I am convinced that when pro-abort, especially pro-abort Catholics, hear the Church/pro-life groups say, "OK. We're gonna drop the outlaw part of our program and work for reduction in numbers" what they hear is: "Since we can tolerate abortion in reduced numbers, abortion can't be all that bad."<BR/><BR/>How many abortions should the Church tolerate as acceptable? In order to reduce the number, we have to accept that some are tolerable.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-39320183302378556062009-01-19T16:18:00.000-06:002009-01-19T16:18:00.000-06:00Speaking for myself here (and not the Democratic P...Speaking for myself here (and not the Democratic Party in general ... can't really speak for them) it is a question of pragmatics, of the "art of the possible."<BR/><BR/>The logic goes like this: a very large majority in this country believes women should be able to choose abortion, but a similar or even larger majority finds abortion to be variously unpleasant, undesirable, disgusting, what-have-you.<BR/><BR/>Since America is a democracy, one cannot dictatorially overturn public opinion overnight. So the next best thing is to work on changing that public opinion through persuasion while working to limit as much as possible the thing we want prohibited. <BR/><BR/>In other words, it's not an expression of morality, but of how American government works. In a dictatorship this would not be the case; all one would have to do is get a pro-life dictator.<BR/><BR/>Robert HamiltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-904260614856939142009-01-19T13:43:00.000-06:002009-01-19T13:43:00.000-06:00typo... "The age of the fetus is irrelevant becaus...typo... "The age of the fetus is irrelevant because viability WILL change with our knowledge..."xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523172845319133436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-22414428205134883452009-01-19T12:47:00.000-06:002009-01-19T12:47:00.000-06:00Snup,You said, "there is something to be said abou...Snup,<BR/><BR/>You said, "there is something to be said about making a bad situation worse." That's exactly what abortion does. No matter the circumstances.<BR/><BR/>Despite what the pro-choice media would have you think, women suffer GREATLY after an abortion. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, you name it. Post-abortion healing ministries/websites/support groups/etc. are on the rise. <BR/><BR/>And Snup... babies younger than 24weeks have survived outside the womb. As our knowledge of medicine grows, so does our capacity to keep premature babies alive and healthy. The age of the fetus is irrelevant because "viability" with change with our knowledge of science and medicine.xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523172845319133436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-26549338940142884742009-01-19T00:58:00.000-06:002009-01-19T00:58:00.000-06:00Snup,OK. My Lincoln analogy was dumb.Abortion is ...Snup,<BR/><BR/>OK. My Lincoln analogy was dumb.<BR/><BR/>Abortion is still murder.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-77261700580895482742009-01-19T00:07:00.000-06:002009-01-19T00:07:00.000-06:00Forgive me, but your Lincoln argument is faulty. ...Forgive me, but your Lincoln argument is faulty. First, when Lincoln was first sworn in as president, he pledged to maintain slavery. Secondly, the Emancipation Proclamation only covered those states in rebellion against the United States. It was still legal to have slaves in Missouri after the emancipation proclamation was signed.<BR/><BR/>According to the U. S. History Encyclopedia, Lincoln did hesitate. His initial proclamation was written in June, but he couldn't propagate it until the Union has a military victory.<BR/><BR/>It's nice and all to be an idealist and not to consider the practicalities of a situation. Had Lincoln and others thought out the practicalities a little more, perhaps a 100+ years of horrible race relations could have been avoided or lessened. Had the winners of WW1 thought things out a little more than the idea of punishing Germany and a little more thoughtful of the practicalities, WW2 may not have happened. <BR/><BR/>I am not denying that abortion is a horrible thing. But there is something to be said about making a bad situation worse.Tina aka Snupnjakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10209866349452434099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-53703697016459296872009-01-18T23:26:00.000-06:002009-01-18T23:26:00.000-06:00Xavier,I understand what you are getting at, but I...Xavier,<BR/><BR/>I understand what you are getting at, but I have to point out that 99.99999% of all abortions are simply women going to the abortion clinic and getting rid of their babies. The situation that you mention here very rare and even in this situation, we would not say that the abortion is a good thing. It is still a moral evil where the culpability of the mother and doctor for the evil is greatly reduced.<BR/><BR/>Be very careful of this sort of "rule by exception" reasoning. I am always running into pro-abortion folks who say they support unfettered abortion rights b/c there might be a woman some day who will die instantly if the fetus gets to two weeks old...it's a ticking time bomb! IOW, they allow a bizarre exception or rare circumstance to govern their reasoning for deciding the other 99.999999% of abortions.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-85003252175755814172009-01-18T23:15:00.000-06:002009-01-18T23:15:00.000-06:00Snup,There are two differences:1). The fetus is n...Snup,<BR/><BR/>There are two differences:<BR/><BR/>1). The fetus is not on artificial life support.<BR/><BR/>2). The fetus is growing not dying.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what happens to the unwanted children once abortion is outlawed. Doesn't matter. Abortion is still murder. The practical effects of outlawing abortion cannot impinge on the essential, rock bottom, unavoidable, no-excuse truth: abortion kills children.<BR/><BR/>I can't emphasize how irrelevant these tangential problems are to the question of abortion's legality. Lincoln did not hesitate to do the right thing and free million of slaves precisely because slavery is an evil. When we allow pro-aborts to start throwing all these practical problems at us, we become good pragmatic Americans and start trying to think of ways to solve these problems...that always leads to compromise and children get killed.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-16930005981350574052009-01-18T19:44:00.000-06:002009-01-18T19:44:00.000-06:00Father Powell,You are doing a great here. God bles...Father Powell,<BR/>You are doing a great here. God bless you in your ministry. I will keep you in my prayers!<BR/>Jillianxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523172845319133436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-23902608570120459212009-01-18T17:22:00.000-06:002009-01-18T17:22:00.000-06:00I understand abortion kills a child. I would like...I understand abortion kills a child. <BR/><BR/>I would like to bring up another angle to the argument. My understanding of church teaching may be flawed and if it is then the argument falls apart. I did look on the USCCB website but couldn't find it. But we will go forward.<BR/><BR/>If I understand correctly, it is permissable to let a person who can't breathe or whose heart can't beat on its own die. So if they are alive with artificial means, then it is okay to withdraw those artificial means and let the person die. This is different from the persistant vegetative state, in which the person just can't eat on his own. <BR/><BR/>Now before the 24th or so week, a baby/fetus in the womb can not breathe on its own. The baby must be kept alive by the mother. In a sense, the mother is a machine to the baby. How is this different?<BR/><BR/>And on a totally unrelated tangent, what happens the day after abortion is made illegal? What happens to those children the women didn't want in the first place? What services will suddenly be available? As I understand it in Missouri, social services is currently stressed and doesn't have enough foster parents for the children already in the system. Are we to go back to orphaneges? Will the infant mortality rate rise? I'm not even sure my diocese has orphanages any more...Tina aka Snupnjakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10209866349452434099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-35912421555090995532009-01-18T16:38:00.000-06:002009-01-18T16:38:00.000-06:00Father, you say: Direct, induced abortion is alway...Father, you say: <I>Direct, induced abortion is always first degree murder. Abortion has no other purpose than the killing of a child.... The object of abortion can never be anything else but the direct killing of an innocent life.</I><BR/><BR/>What do you say about the case of a pregnancy that is terminated by a means such as inducing labor or removing the live baby from its mother before viability, in order to save the mother's life? (e.g., in the case of an ectopic pregnancy where the child and probably the mother would die if the mother attempted to carry the child until viability.) This doesn't seem to be directly killing the baby, but placing the child in a circumstance (namely outside the womb) where it will die sooner than it would otherwise, in order to save the mother's life. Isn't this an instance of "double effect", where the acceleration of the child's death is accepted as an unwished for side effect of the need to induce labor before viability?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-25035095920467036572009-01-18T15:19:00.000-06:002009-01-18T15:19:00.000-06:00Snup,Killing your child b/c you think you might no...Snup,<BR/><BR/>Killing your child b/c you think you might not be able to care for it is still killing your child.<BR/><BR/>Abortion kills a child. Nothing changes that. Nothing.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-12510728877337079232009-01-18T13:58:00.000-06:002009-01-18T13:58:00.000-06:00I think the main problem with this issue is that s...I think the main problem with this issue is that somehow it has a become a choice between abortion and keeping the baby. Adoption is rarely thought of. Perhaps it is our selfish society. Perhaps it is a long ago stiring of basic biological impulses. I have a friend who is putting herself through misery because she wants a baby. I was like why don't you just adopt one? She was like then it wouldn't be mine. <BR/><BR/>Abortion is cheap. Pre-natal care, delivery and adoption are not. <BR/><BR/>Finally, I was asking my sister who is younger than me about abortion. Apparently one of her friends just had one. She currently has two special needs kids under 4 and she is overwhelmed. She couldn't handle another child especially a special needs child. She didn't even think about putting the baby up for adoption. Perhaps she was afraid she would be talked into keeping the baby. <BR/><BR/>I think that if we make adoption and pre-natal care cheaper than abortion and make adoption more acceptable, then abortion will go away/decrease naturally.Tina aka Snupnjakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10209866349452434099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-4650809191566389952009-01-18T06:36:00.000-06:002009-01-18T06:36:00.000-06:00Dear Father,Thank you for the intelligent debate o...Dear Father,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the intelligent debate on this issue. Usually I don't talk about abortion because it results in strong emotions and insults. That just makes me shut down. I can't think straight when people yell at me and I need to understand my own thoughts.<BR/><BR/>You have helped me identify a couple of issues where my thinking is perhaps flawed. I need to take more time to examine these issues (implied guilt of child of rape; optimistic view of possibilities vs mercy of death). When these thoughts are out in the open they don't make as much sense as when they are unsaid. So I have more thinking to do. And praying, of course.<BR/><BR/>God bless you in your work and of course I will continue to read your blog with interest.<BR/><BR/>--Maria (reynardine)Reynardinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01023413215680795722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-54396467276352224602009-01-18T01:50:00.000-06:002009-01-18T01:50:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.aspiring...https://www.blogger.com/profile/10825316824097996382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-90171381237119421912009-01-18T00:45:00.000-06:002009-01-18T00:45:00.000-06:00Reynardine,Justice is traditionally defined as "ge...Reynardine,<BR/><BR/>Justice is traditionally defined as "getting what one deserves." It's unclear to me how an innocent child deserves to be murdered in it mother's womb.<BR/><BR/>Direct, induced abortion is always first degree murder. Abortion has no other purpose than the killing of a child. The guilt attached to the crime might be mitigated by circumstance, but the act of abortion is always objectively evil. Why? The object of abortion can never be anything else but the direct killing of an innocent life.<BR/><BR/>Nothing in Catholic teaching tells us that a child carries the burden of its father's actual sin. Original sin (the capacity for evil) is part of the human inheritance...but actual sin, no. <BR/><BR/>If we assume that a child is guilty of its father's actual sin, then why not wait until it is born and fully developed into an adult and then execute it for its father's crimes? If it is moral to execute a fetus for its father's actual crimes, then it is moral to do so after it is born.<BR/><BR/>I should note that my calmness is based squarely on your willingness to engage the debate calmly!<BR/><BR/>Let me be a priest for a moment: for the sake of your conscience and the health of your soul, please continue to grow in your understanding of Church teaching on this issue. You are teetering on the edge of folly by letting these various arguments for the morality of murdering a human being into your conscience.<BR/><BR/>The consequence of this folly is what Aquinas calls a "twisted conscience," that is a conscience no long able to distinguish Good from Evil. Accepting the morality of murder will spill over into other areas of your life and "kill charity in your heart" (that's the definition of mortal sin, btw).<BR/><BR/>Please read this column from Bishop Vasa carefully: http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=31633Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-86158173497502502322009-01-18T00:25:00.000-06:002009-01-18T00:25:00.000-06:00Snup,All of your (admittedly Devilish) objections ...Snup,<BR/><BR/>All of your (admittedly Devilish) objections are based on one assumption: that there exists some set of circumstances where it is OK to kill a child...inconvenience, threat of abusive household, soci0-economic, etc. IOW, you are arguing that ALL abortions must remain legal b/c SOME babies may be __________ (fill in the blank with fav circumstance).<BR/><BR/>In my long years of teaching the Catholic position on abortion, I am constantly amazed that pro-aborts can't seem to get that a human embryo, fetus, etc. will always develop into a human baby if it is not killed in the womb. I know of no cases where a human embryo has magically altered its substantial form and come out of the womb as a dolphin or a possum or an rose bush.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-65004222205669193482009-01-17T20:25:00.000-06:002009-01-17T20:25:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.aspiring...https://www.blogger.com/profile/10825316824097996382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-55142986135637127482009-01-17T17:58:00.000-06:002009-01-17T17:58:00.000-06:00To the first post.Playing devil's advocate, can yo...To the first post.<BR/>Playing devil's advocate, can you really say that a fetus in the womb is alive? Before, what week 24, the potential baby can't survive outside the womb. Is the fetus more like a parasite then? If I take a 10 week old fetus outside the womb, it will die.<BR/><BR/><BR/>There are some things that are legal, but societal and cultural pressures/influences keep them from happening. Abortions needs to be like that. The only example I can think of is inter-racial marriage. It is perfectly legal (now, I realize in the past it was not at least in the U.S.) There are many pressures that keep the majority of people from marrying outside their race. Same thing goes for marrying outside the Faith. It may be against my Faith to marry a Methodist, but it is not illegal. My parents and family would disown me, but it would not be illegal.<BR/><BR/>To the second post:<BR/>So if Mom decides to have baby even though she hates baby and doesn't want baby then what? You going to pick up the pieces? Can you really heal children whose mothers didn't want them? Perhaps and this is going out on the limb, it is the more humane thing to have an abortion early rather than inflict years of mental, emotional, physical and psychological trauma on a child. <BR/><BR/>Additionally, you only punish the poor and disadvantaged by making abortion illegal. People who have the means will go out of the country to have an abortion.Tina aka Snupnjakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10209866349452434099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-21197124513854879132009-01-17T17:31:00.000-06:002009-01-17T17:31:00.000-06:00Father, in giving careful thought to what has been...Father, in giving careful thought to what has been said, I think I have narrowed down the difference I see between the situation of rape/incest (where I believe abortion is allowable) and the situation of inconvenience (where I believe one should face the consequences of one's action and have the baby).<BR/><BR/>(I've leaving medical danger circumstance out because that's not a question of choice or not, it's a question of one life over another.)<BR/><BR/>The difference I'm seeing is the sin of the father. The woman is a victim of rape or incest: the father is guilty and the child carries the sin of the father and is therefore not innocent.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if that is inaccurate thinking or not, as I had no idea that was how I viewed the situation until just now.<BR/><BR/>I think I see another thread of thought coming through these various points that I have seen posted here: you often set forth the issue of possibility of life in a situation, whereas I tend to see the mercy of death. I acknowledge that might be a fallacy of thinking on my part. I wish I could be more optimistic like that. <BR/><BR/>So to address your questions:<BR/><BR/><I>1). If abortion is the termination of a human life, how are we improving the horrible situation of a rape victim or a victim of incest by adding murder to her burden?</I><BR/><BR/>By granting justice, if the argument that the child is guilty of the sin of its father is correct.<BR/><BR/><I>2). If abortion is the termination of a human, i.e., murder, then why would we hope to merely reduce the number of murders rather than outlaw them like we do for adults?</I><BR/><BR/>At least in America's justice system, murder is not simply murder, but several different stages (manslaughter, felony murder, etc) that not only are punished differently, but can be bargained down. One can spend more time in prison for stealing a car than killing a man. Perhaps that is part of why American society as a whole view abortion the way it does.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the calmness of this discussion. It has helped me isolate my ideas. I do not know whether I am wrong or right but this is the line of my thinking and hopefully this can help you understand where other people who think in this same manner are coming from.Reynardinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01023413215680795722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-14339371944260308012009-01-17T16:18:00.000-06:002009-01-17T16:18:00.000-06:00Snup,I worked with abused children for years. One...Snup,<BR/><BR/>I worked with abused children for years. One thing I know for sure: children aborted by potentially abusive parents never get the chance to get better. They will always be dead.<BR/><BR/>Do we really want to kill a child b/c his/her parents MIGHT be abusive bastards? Might be. Maybe. Again, dead is permanent. You are arguing that we should be apply the permanent solution of death to a problem that might come up. Maybe.Fr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.com