tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post1535588221448045027..comments2024-02-26T09:30:54.111-06:00Comments on Domine, da mihi hanc aquam!: Reaction from Santa SabinaFr. Philip Powell, OPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-3240813103857810602007-09-20T22:14:00.000-05:002007-09-20T22:14:00.000-05:00I have railed against the "Sunday Celebrations in ...I have railed against the "Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest" since I first the thing seven years ago. It might as well be titled, "A Sure Fire Means of Killing Vocations and Guaranteeing That Your Parish Becomes Protestant Within a Year." <BR/><BR/>The pamphlet isn't anything new or even interesting. This sort of "we need a priestless church b/c hierarchy is evil blahblahblah..." has been around since the first Gnostic cult in the first century pretended to ordain some doped-up prophetess in Crete and claim she was the Virgin Mary incarnated. I really can't emphasize enough how exactly unoriginal these proposals are. We have had this sort of "protestantizing" element in the church from the beginning...from the very beginning. Just read Paul's letters to the Corinthians. My Dutch brothers trot out the favorite justification for "women priests, ad nau"--the early church did X and Y, therefore, we ought to do X and Y. Please note that this argument is only used when the liberals approve of X and Y. They would never argue, for e.g., that we should return to the early church's practice of public confession and the severe penances that were applied. Nor would they argue that we separate the sexes at liturgy, following the example of our Jewish ancestors. The historical argument is very selectively wielded. The "we need to be up to date" argument is also quite old-fashioned and selectively used. The same people who argue that the liturgy is infinitely adaptable to cultural situations are the first to slap close the missal when the culture seems to be taking a turn they don't approve of. IOW, as long as the culture is liberal, then the church ought to be following the culture. As soon as the culture takes on a more traditional tone, well, now anyone who suggests that the liturgy needs to be adapted is divisive. Go figure.<BR/><BR/>Fr. Philip, OPFr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-45836348494210978172007-09-20T21:30:00.000-05:002007-09-20T21:30:00.000-05:00This is what the Tablet says:(http://www.thetablet...This is what the Tablet says:<BR/>(http://www.thetablet.co.uk/articles/10320/) <BR/><BR/>There is some truth in that pamphlet. In my neck of the woods, NE, it is all too common to have Communion Services led by Lay Leaders. Previously Consecrated Hosts are used. I can see where this may lead us, in the light of the Dutch Dominican proposals.<BR/>Interesting speculations, too bad the pamphlet was distributed the way it was. It confused the people and then the media fueled the flames.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-7731287322217227422007-09-20T13:31:00.000-05:002007-09-20T13:31:00.000-05:00Maybe the Dominicans are tired of seeing the Jebbi...Maybe the Dominicans are tired of seeing the Jebbies get all the headlines...Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-68003021521120747802007-09-20T08:40:00.000-05:002007-09-20T08:40:00.000-05:00The following is the gist of the pamphlet, transla...The following is the gist of the pamphlet, translated by Mr. Martin Badenhorst, OP.<BR/><BR/>Here is my summary of the document's arguments. May I emphasise "summary of<BR/>the document"? Since I have simply tried to translate and summarize.<BR/><BR/>History of the Document:<BR/><BR/>A study of the current situation of the Netherlands church was proposed to<BR/>the provincial chapter by way of a petition. The situation is the greater<BR/>number of lay lead services of worship with communion. The chapter accepted<BR/>the petition and appointed a commission to produce a response to the<BR/>situation, so as to promote discussion.<BR/><BR/>The Situation:<BR/><BR/>An increasing number of lay lead services, utilizing Hosts previously<BR/>consecrated, or fetched from elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>This practice has given rise, in people's experience to an alternative<BR/>ecclesiology, where the lay ministers are selected and approved by a local<BR/>process. An ecclesiology from below has emerged, with congregations taking<BR/>greater ownership and laity become, theologically, more aware.<BR/><BR/>The practice as approved by the Bishops already challenges notions of<BR/>clericalism as the homily is necessarily delivered by a lay person. Because<BR/>of the lay involvement in selecting suitable ministers and preparing for the<BR/>liturgy in the absence of a priest, their experience of such liturgies is<BR/>as, and sometimes more, profound than their experience of Mass when a<BR/>priest, and often an imported foreign priest, presides on occasion with no<BR/>further connection to the community.<BR/><BR/>Abuses with the unworthy transport of Hosts, or the "topping up of ciboria"<BR/>with altar breads have been noted. This also has the danger of giving rise<BR/>to magical thought with regard to the Eucharist.<BR/><BR/>Though there are prescribed prayers for the services, issues by the Bishops'<BR/>Conference, there is also a great leeway allowed leading to the crafting of<BR/>prayers reflecting local realities and sometimes containing the institution<BR/>narrative.<BR/><BR/>Theological Points<BR/><BR/>The church is Eucharistic and to live without the celebration of the<BR/>Eucharist is to live without the fullness of the church.<BR/><BR/>The hierarchical model is challenged by these practices allowed by the<BR/>hierarchy. It is difficult for bishops to take authority in the monarchical<BR/>model of hierarchy when they have already nurtured an alternative, "from<BR/>below" ecclesiology. This is the dichotomy created by priestless services on<BR/>Sundays.<BR/><BR/>Imposing priests on congregations simply to supply Eucharist is challenged,<BR/>as the congregations have grown used to the notion of partnership.<BR/><BR/>Clericalism and the monarchical episcopate is a later development. The early<BR/>church appeared to have alternative models to the hierarchy which emerged.<BR/><BR/>A particular reading of the leadership of household communities as given in<BR/>Acts and some of the Pauline letters appears to hint at female leadership at<BR/>the early Eucharist, which has remerged as women ministers lead Sunday<BR/>worship.<BR/><BR/>What has emerged is from the shortage of priests is a return to older more<BR/>participatory models which appear, to the commission, closer to the<BR/>ecclesiology of the pilgrim people articulated by Vatican II.<BR/><BR/>It appears that as leadership of worship is no longer simply the domain of<BR/>only clerics, so that this fact could even extend to Eucharistic worship,<BR/>with the entire congregation voicing the institution narrative, as it is the<BR/>prayer of the whole church which brings about sacrament.<BR/><BR/>The pyramid model of church is a reality, though it emerges to preserve and<BR/>propagate the faith in a different social and world situation, as the<BR/>context changes does not the structure have to change as well?<BR/><BR/>Ways Forward<BR/><BR/>Here I translate, giving the original first:<BR/><BR/>Bij kentering van het dominante mens- en wereldbeeld, bij<BR/>maatschappelijk-economische verschuivingen en een nieuwe sociaal-culturele<BR/>gevoeligheid kan de historisch gegroeide kerkorde in feite dát gaan<BR/>tegenspreken en verhinderen wat zij in vroegere tijden juist veilig heeft<BR/>willen stellen: de opbouw van een christelijke gemeenschap. Het is de vraag<BR/>of en in hoeverre vormen en voorschriften die destijds begrijpelijk en<BR/>zinnig en dus reëel waren, in onze tijd nóg zinvol en reëel, wellicht<BR/>contra-productief zijn.<BR/>Wij denken hierbij met name aan de kerkelijke wet die enkel celibataire<BR/>mannen toelaat tot het ambt van voorganger en de wet die vrouwen van het<BR/>ambt van voorganger uitsluit. Historisch staan een verouderde antropologie<BR/>en een antieke opvatting van de seksualiteit aan de oorsprong van deze<BR/>wetten. Het zijn kerkelijke, dus menselijke en geen goddelijke wetten.<BR/><BR/>When the dominant paradigm of humanity and the world changes, with social<BR/>and economic changes and a new social and cultural intuition, it may be that<BR/>the current, historically conditioned, church structure actually negates<BR/>what it achieved in earlier times, that is the building up of the Christian<BR/>community. The question is whether and to what extent forms and rules which<BR/>were previously reasonable and sensible and thus normative are still so in<BR/>our time and to what extent they are counter-productive. Here we<BR/>specifically call to mind the law requiring a male, celibate, to lead<BR/>prayers in the community and the law excluding women from this leadership<BR/>role. Historically there is a dated anthropology and antiquated model of<BR/>sexuality which lies at the root of these laws. They are ecclesiastical,<BR/>thus human, and not divine laws.<BR/><BR/>Het huidige priestertekort is beslist onnodig en in die zin irreëel. In veel<BR/>parochies zijn momenteel mannen en vrouwen hartverwarmend en inspirerend<BR/>actief als eigentijdse gangmakers en bezielers, evangelische<BR/>identificatie-figuren. Veel gemeenteleden zouden hen vol vertrouwen en graag<BR/>inordenen als hun gemeenteleiders en als hun voorgangers in hun liturgische<BR/>vieringen. Wij denken hierbij allereerst aan de officieel aangestelde<BR/>pastorale werksters en werkers, maar ook aan de vele vrijwilligers. Deze<BR/>vrouwen en<BR/>mannen staan in het hart van hun overzichtelijke gemeenschappen. Dat geldt<BR/>voor hen veelal meer dan voor de gewijde priesters. Die zijn aangesteld om –<BR/>vaak in meerdere parochies – voor te gaan in sacramentele vieringen, vooral<BR/>de eucharistie. Onontkoombaar worden zij zo tot hun eigen ontmoediging en<BR/>frustratie steeds meer “vreemden” voor de kerkgangers.<BR/><BR/>The current shortage of priests is, strictly speaking, unnecessary and<BR/>unreal. Many parishes already have men and women who are heart-warmingly and<BR/>inspiringly active as contemporary pathfinders and inspirers, evangelical<BR/>exemplaries. Many parishes would, with full confidence, have them ordained<BR/>as their pastoral leaders and as leaders in liturgical celebrations. We<BR/>specifically call to mind those already, officially appointed, pastoral<BR/>assistants(men and women) as well as many volunteers. These men and women<BR/>are central to the congregations having oversight over them. This is more<BR/>true of them than for ordained priests. Such priests are being appointed<BR/>only - more often in more than one parish - to lead the celebration of the<BR/>sacraments especially the Eucharist. Inevitable frustration and<BR/>discouragement follow their remaining relative strangers to the church<BR/>members.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to my community brother, Martin. +FaithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-57340089910828252722007-09-20T07:04:00.000-05:002007-09-20T07:04:00.000-05:00How weird...You'd think that the members of a cler...How weird...<BR/><BR/>You'd think that the members of a clerical order would really have some idea about this sort of thing...Liturgeisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03173587822065719432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-3447320181808737372007-09-19T18:08:00.000-05:002007-09-19T18:08:00.000-05:00Doug,Not strongly worded...yup. This is why I wan...Doug,<BR/><BR/>Not strongly worded...yup. This is why I want to see a copy of the statement itself and see who signed it, if anyone. No doubt there were "inquiries behind the scene" about this, but this sort of response is not all that strange for us. OP's aren't prone to denouncing one another publicly. We prefer more subtle means. To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised to see anything out of Santa Sabina at all! Not that I think nothing would be said...I'm just surprised to see something, anything done publicly. Not really our style.<BR/><BR/>Fr. PhilipFr. Philip Powell, OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14970857401221305221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18842286.post-82726841697866453162007-09-19T16:38:00.000-05:002007-09-19T16:38:00.000-05:00This doesn't seem to be very strongly worded. Do w...This doesn't seem to be very strongly worded. Do we think that the Master General or one of his representatives chided the Dutch Dominicans in private?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16248847549324304536noreply@blogger.com